You’ll Lose Some Things, But You’ll Find a New Home | EP 12
Welcome to the Curian Podcast. My name is Ruthie. I'm a community leader in Arizona, and I'm really glad to be part of The Curian Network, a denominational space resourcing and credentialing pastors, chaplains, counselors, and spiritual directors. Thanks for joining us today, and get ready for inspiring conversations and insights. For more of what we're doing in the world, make sure to check out the curian.network.
Speaker 1:That's the Curian, curian,.network.
Speaker 2:Everyone, thank you so much for being with us tonight. We are actually at the Open and Relational Theology Conference twenty twenty six.
Speaker 3:It's here.
Speaker 2:That's right. As you can tell, it's happening live. We did not even dub that applause in or anything. In the great state of Wyoming, it is a beautiful, fun time every year to be with friends, to talk open and relational theology, to be in the beautiful mountains. And this year, we got some good Curian friends with us, my friend, doctor Thomas J.
Speaker 2:Oord, the reverend doctor Shalene Kendrick.
Speaker 4:It's one hell of a title. You're welcome, world.
Speaker 2:And others of us would like to be defrocked for various reasons. That's what
Speaker 4:she said.
Speaker 2:So what we're going to do tonight is for those of you who might be listening to this audio, wherever this is going to live, we're going to allow Tom and Shalene and Tory to share a few minutes from their respective fields, and then we may ask a few questions of you. And we want you to know, you who are listening, how much we care about you. We think of we think, highly of you, and we know that you are potentially not in a a real safe space. And want me to want you to know that Curian is and that it's a reasonably intelligent reasonably intelligent place to be, full of full of good people. So place to be refrocked.
Speaker 2:It's a place to be refrocked.
Speaker 3:Yes. Refrocked. Yes.
Speaker 5:Man oh, man. We'll refrock you up.
Speaker 2:Do not let Sherry back up here on the guitar. Man, do you have that URL, refrock.org? Damian, do a Google search and help us out with refrocked. Okay? We need something to happen.
Speaker 2:Alright. So let's do this. Tom, why don't you take a few minutes and talk to folks as an introduction, kinda what what open and relational theology is and how it might help them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think most people who are Christian or even religious think there's something really important about love. But then they hang out in the church, they hang out with people, and the way love gets talked about or expressed doesn't feel like love at all. It doesn't fit their deepest intuitions about how we ought to promote the well-being, the flourishing, the thriving of one another. And in fact, God is often portrayed as this big well, we used the word jerk, who is either distant, uninvolved
Speaker 2:I am so curious as to what word. This went through time or it's mine. What kind of degenerate?
Speaker 3:I got a Nazarene background.
Speaker 2:I don't
Speaker 3:have any juicy words. That bad. Exactly. God's either distant, uninvolved, kind of watching us from a distance like Bette Midler's God, or God is looking over your shoulder just waiting to kick you in the ass if you stepped out of line, a punishing God. What if there was actually a sophisticated theology that fit the key claim of Scripture that God is love, that we ought to love one another, that the steadfast love of the Lord endures forever, and that love doesn't punish, That love doesn't cause or even allow evil, doesn't send anyone to hell.
Speaker 3:That love loves straight people, queer people. That love that love loves all people of all colors, all etcetera, etcetera. What if it was a radically inclusive God? And what if there were a bunch of people who decided to start a denomination with that idea at the very center? Maybe you'd call it Curian.
Speaker 2:I like it.
Speaker 4:That was really great.
Speaker 2:This is good.
Speaker 6:I'm serious. That was really
Speaker 4:good. I'm not making fun
Speaker 2:of you, I promise.
Speaker 6:You'll know when I'm making fun of you.
Speaker 4:That was not it.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Thank you, Tom. Excellent. Shalene, talk to us a little bit about, neurorrelational theology, what you do, and how folks might help or get help, from your work?
Speaker 4:Well, I will say my I'm gonna start with this. I'm so sad I left it in the room because I meant to bring it, but I'm perimenopausal so there's a lot of things that I can't remember these days. One of them is the most prized possession, and I say this all the time to whoever will listen, in my wallet happens to be my Curian ordination card. And it is because it says, obviously, Reverend Doctor, which is such a badass title. Like, I'm I grew up evangelical, so I wasn't even allowed to be a reverend.
Speaker 4:And then I was also female, so in those words, you know, that world. So reverend doctor's clearly cool, but but wait for it. Ready? Reverend doctor, Shaleen Kendrick, most importantly, Minister to Human Evolution.
Speaker 7:Nice. And
Speaker 4:the best part is when Jonathan emailed me and was like, well, what do you want your title to be? And I said, well, could I please be Minister to Human Evolution? And she goes, I don't think that exists. And I said, well, if you put it on my ordination card, it will. And she did.
Speaker 4:So you too can be a minister to human evolution or you get to pick your title. So whatever title it is that you want, my friend Reverend Doctor or Reverend Jill, she picked her title and it's community Minister to Community Care and it's beautiful. So so we so encourage you that you get to self identify here. And so I come at it. What I love about you said something earlier, Tom, that I thought was beautiful.
Speaker 4:You had said, you know, my goal or what I really want is to be one of the the one of the theologians that when you think about love, we would think about your work and open and relational theology and I deeply was inspired by that. And while I love love, I read a lot of dirty romance novels. You're welcome, world. Alongside, you know, all the other theological novels. But what I actually am deeply passionate about is coherence.
Speaker 4:And it it means the functioning in a whole. And so for me, as a theologian, I grew up in the belly of the evangelical church. I come from I didn't know that I was MAGA because it didn't exist back then. I didn't know that I was Christian nationalist. I just thought I went to Scottsdale Bible Church.
Speaker 4:We are non denominational and we are about the Bible. I did not know that came with a lot of other things attached to it such as all the things. That's a different podcast. Anyhow, for me, part of my journey of growing up, and you had said it earlier, I wish we were recording. We had talked, for those of you joining us, about one of the one of the reasons that we have been drawn, like, bees to honey to Curian is because it is a place that we can be and become made whole.
Speaker 4:It is a place that we can be our full selves and something you said specifically, especially in this moment in time, is so many people who are credentialed and who are ordained are finding themselves, they have to how did you say it? You said it so beautifully. They have to sacrifice
Speaker 3:Trade their integrity.
Speaker 4:You have to trade your integrity for your credential. Well, the neuroscientific term for that is incoherence. And really interestingly is that when we look at from evolutionary biology that we are actually designed as living systems. We are designed for coherence. Like we are biologically, neurobiologically designed to crave functioning as a coherent whole.
Speaker 4:And what I mean by that is the neuroscientific definition of integration, it's the new pop culture word, everybody loves integration. Just so you know, there are no other synonyms to integration other than functional harmony.
Speaker 2:And refrocked.
Speaker 4:And refrocked, which we could I could go all day on that one, but I'm gonna try to stay focused. So integration, it does not mean connection. You can be connected and not integrated. It doesn't mean aligned. You can be aligned and not integrated.
Speaker 4:Integrated specifically in the neuroscientific world, thank you to Dan Siegel, means the linkage of differentiated parts into a functional whole. If that is not one of the most theological cosmic visions for all humans as it that is one of the most deeply theological definitions I've ever heard. So integration, the linkage of differentiated parts into a functional whole. And what that means is is that you the the part that is itself you've actually said this earlier about not wanting to lose your your selfhood. Like, don't wanna go and become one with whatever that is one because I might lose
Speaker 3:Who I am.
Speaker 4:This sense of me. Yeah. And what I love about this term about integration is that it is not Segal talks about it as it's not fruit smoothie where everything is blended together. Right? That integration is more like a fruit salad where each item is differentiated and distinct yet they are functioning together in such a way that they create a sum greater than its parts.
Speaker 4:That's what emergence means. Right? I mean, theologically we would call that the kingdom of heaven. Yes? So I am deeply concerned with I I'm a neurotheologian, and I enter the field.
Speaker 4:I'm open and relational neurotheologian, and that matters a lot. It's an emerging field, and what neurotheology or neurospirituality means is it is the neuroscience of spirituality, And it means that we are looking at how spiritual and religious experiences, which by the way, those are not the same thing, are actually actively shaping human neurobiology. And that really matters to me, especially because this is my John Sanders plug. Are you ready, John? I have a scholarly crush on John Sanders in case anyone's wondering.
Speaker 7:And
Speaker 4:I I do love his book Embracing Prodigals but on page three of Theology in the Flesh, this is what captivated me as a young scholar. He says this, The real debate is not whether we should use human categories and concepts to understand God, but which ones we deem appropriate for God. And I would take that one step further of which ones we deem appropriate for ourselves as well. So, real question is not about what human categories and concepts we are applying to God but I'm very fascinated by how those categories and concepts are shaping us and that we would care that we would care about how theologies like original sin and penal substitution atonement. And I meant penal, not penis, but you're welcome.
Speaker 4:For listeners, you're welcome for that one. And so what we're wondering, what I'm looking at is how are those ideas about God actively shaping not only our neurobiology but also our relationality? Because whatever it means to be human, which in case you're wondering, that's like the question these days, like what does it mean to be human? As we should be asking as we enter the new era and the second axial age, again another podcast. But what it means now is we we have to ask what does it mean to be human?
Speaker 4:I do not have a definitive answer to that, but what I do know is that whatever it means to be human, it means that we are neuro biological relational beings. We are living systems nested within living systems. We are inherently relational. And so when we think about life saving ideas, I'm I'm really curious about how are these ideas about God actively shaping our neurobiology, our relationality, our communities, our sociology, like it really Can
Speaker 3:I jump in there? Because I see a connection between what you're saying and this love stuff that I started earlier. One of the things you talk a lot about as you think about the integration of all our three hearts, our three brains, whatever it is, the whole
Speaker 4:You read 400 pages the three brains.
Speaker 3:Whatever it is. Yeah, no, no. Trying to
Speaker 4:make that real clear.
Speaker 3:Integrating the whole self. One of the things you talk lot about, and I think a lot of people in religious circles, Christianity in particular, is this notion of loving ourselves, self care. And I can imagine a lot of people who are listening to this right now, who are in clergy positions, who have this lack of integration because they have ideas about God, about the way the world ought to be, and they're in systems, denominations, belief structures that oppose that, and they're I'm sorry to say this, they're really not loving themselves because they stay where they're at. I was in that position and I'm guessing a lot of you were there as well. So there's something about the love thing that fits really nicely with this integration of all parts of who we are.
Speaker 4:Yes. And that's why I always say we got out and fight in this. We fight often. It's a very loving fighting relationship. But one of things you had said is like, as we because I I incessantly talk about neuroscience and neurobiology and Tom would always say, well, what about open and relational?
Speaker 4:Go, no, don't understand. Like, I cannot be a neurotheologian without the life saving ideas of open and relational because, you're welcome for this, I watch other scholars actually enter into neurotheology without paying attention to an uncontrolling love and it is harmful. So neuroplasticity cuts both ways. It is not neutral. And so when I'm watching this emerging field, when I watch and I read and I look at the FMRIs and I'm reading all these studies about how spirituality is actively shaping not only the human brain but our nervous systems and our connections with each other, it is not all positive.
Speaker 4:And open and relational ideas are very important to how we are being shaped neurobiologically and relationally.
Speaker 2:Nice. That's nice. Alright. Tori, share with us. And I was just thinking, I don't know why I set this table up so close, and I feel like I'm in front of you, but if I scoot back any further, I'm off the platform.
Speaker 7:You should stay right here.
Speaker 2:It would be a great show, but we don't want that. So No. Share with us a little.
Speaker 7:I I think where I'm going is that when you were talking specifically about who we were going to be talking to, right, who this was going to reach, my therapist heart, right, just and I went back to a particular place myself, is when I was in seminary, and I was closeted, I was compartmentalized, I certainly wasn't integrated, Self care was in the toilet, right, all these things, and yet, what was also happening was I was having so many thoughts, and I was in the process of deconstructing, and I was challenging beliefs that I'd grown up in time and time again. And what a terribly, horribly lonely place that was. It was devastatingly dark and just the loneliness. I think that would be the term I would use, that loneliness that you're just carrying, and walking around in the space of going, I don't have anyone to bounce these ideas off of. There is no safe space for me to put out, right?
Speaker 7:And what I know as a therapist is that when you're sitting with me and I'm creating this space for you to feel safe enough to tell me the very worst thing, because that's always the case, right? Someone's going, oh my gosh. I've gotta tell you something. And like I've never heard it before. Right?
Speaker 7:And it's creating that space so that you are willing to say the worst thing or the hardest thing or the most difficult thing or the thing that you think your life is gonna fall apart on, right, that point, there's nowhere to do that. There's nowhere to go for that, right, in some of these traditions. And so you're walking around, It you almost feel like a zombie at times where you're just kinda dead inside because you can't discuss these things and get them out in the open and begin to articulate and work it around and find words in what's happening to me and all these things. And so if I had to say anything about Curian now, it would be, you can totally do that here. You can do that all day long.
Speaker 7:You can sit there and be authentic and and hold that integrity and and sit in a space with all of us, and you can you can brainstorm, and you can bullshit, and you can do all these things, and we're gonna sit there, and we're gonna laugh with you, and we're gonna talk with you, and we're gonna say, Tell me more. And I think that's probably that's where I went to in the first place. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Thank you. You're welcome. It reminded me why we're talking and your story. If you in the audience or the listener hasn't heard, you should tune into, I can't remember which episode it is from The Curian Podcast, but Reverend Jill, our friend that Shalene, mentioned earlier, interviews Tori. And you get to hear Tori's story.
Speaker 2:And I just thought I mean, I'm biased because I like you. I just thought it was the sweetest, most genuine, but also heartbreaking but very authentic story. And I thought, man, if every Nazarene
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or, for that matter, any conservative, you know, kind of fundamentalist leaning ecclesiological setting person would listen to that with intellectual honesty, I don't know how in the world they couldn't just think differently. But the
Speaker 4:I can explain it to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, you can. Well, go ahead. Totally can.
Speaker 4:Neuroscientifically but also experientially.
Speaker 2:Give it a shot. Let's see it.
Speaker 4:Okay. We had a great conversation about this earlier. A lot of the reason what it might what a lot of you likely are experiencing is we talk about fundamentalism and authoritarianism is what it what happens, especially when we talk about authoritarian ideas which are not just ideas. So let's be really clear. A belief is not an abstract thing that you hold.
Speaker 4:A belief is a specific neurobiological network that is running repeatedly that helps your predictive brain stay safe. Right? So a belief is a neurobiological event that is happening within you. And so what happens is is when you hold some of these fundamentalist beliefs such as let's take doctrine of hell, one of my many favorites. But but when when you hold the neurobiological relational belief that you are going to burn an internal conscious torment, if you do not hold the right set of beliefs as if they're a noun or something outside of you, it actually neurobiologically puts your nervous system and activates your sympathetic nervous system and your survival reactions.
Speaker 4:So what happens is it's not that the person is not it's not that they're intellectually dishonest. Actually it's the opposite. The truth is they are in a state, an autonomic state of fight, flight or fun where they actually believe that if someone is queer or whatever you want to if someone is going against that theology of hell it registers in their system the same as a saber tooth tiger. That they cannot tell the difference between being chased by a saber tooth tiger and perhaps thinking differently about hell which happens when your autonomic nervous system is in an activated state, it pulls neural activity away from the prefrontal cortex, which means you are less able to activate those neural networks, your higher order complex processing. So it's not that they're intellectually dishonest, it's that they're locked in a survival reaction and they truly cannot access the part of their brain that would have that help them think through it.
Speaker 4:They truly don't have enough They're they're in a survival reaction.
Speaker 2:I think I think two of them are dishonest. I think Yes. There's like two or three of Sure. But the rest of them are probably
Speaker 4:I'm not saying
Speaker 6:it's not intellectual dishonesty going on. I'm just saying.
Speaker 3:Well, I'm glad she brings up beliefs because I think one of the worries that potential members or members of Curian might have is they might say to themselves, look. I'm coming from an institution, a denomination that's got this long list of doctrines that I have to affirm, and I'm squeamish on a few of them, or maybe even more than a few. Am I just trading one long list of doctrines for another Curian? Is that what this is all about? And I want to reassure those folks.
Speaker 3:I want to say to them, we have what we call a theological paradigm, which is a kind of a general vision of a God of love shaped by an open future, and not predestination in the classical sense. Those kinds of things are a part of the statement, but it's not another list of things you have to peg on. Also, I think I do a lot of looking at church statements of faith on the web. Like someone will say, hey, I heard Oasis Christian churches over here, and they got a great thing going. And so I'll go on Oasis website, and I'll see what they say on the faith of faith.
Speaker 3:There are two things that I hone in on. Number one, if this church has an inerrancy statement, I pretty much know where they're gonna be. I'm probably not gonna be welcomed there. And secondly, if this church has a queer affirming statement, I say to myself, okay, these folks, I'm gonna feel comfortable there. Those I care about the doctrine of God.
Speaker 3:I care about Jesus. I I care about all kinds of things. But those two things, in my view, typically point to where a church is at and what they really stand for. Curian Network is an inclusive place. We have a theological vision.
Speaker 3:It's not just anything goes, but it's also not just another, you know, you gotta check off all these things and mind your p's and q's and make everything work out right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Thank you for saying that. That is one of the things we're trying to do is to empower faith community leaders in their local setting, whatever their expression is. And I don't know how many times over the years in my denominational settings, I would leave meetings. And I would say and this was before my theology started to shift a little bit.
Speaker 2:I would say, why does it always feel like I exist for the denomination rather than the denomination existing for the local pastor? That feels a little backwards. So that one thing, even though I don't think it's on our website or anything, I think that idea kinda drives as much as what we're do as as we're doing as anything, trying to just figure out how to be the minimum viable structure in order for them to do the maximal amount of love and good damage in their local expression. So thanks for saying that. I want And
Speaker 7:let me say something on that. There's something about, you know, holding that loosely, right? And that can be a little scary maybe for those who are listening also weirdly. Because when you come out of that that structure and so many specifics that you're having to follow, it can feel a little wiggy when you're going almost the complete opposite. So just know that we can be there for you in that as well, that we can walk you through that because that can be anxiety producing, certainly.
Speaker 2:Yes, so much of this is disorienting and destabilizing for a variety of different reasons psychologically, neurobiology.
Speaker 4:Whatever the neuron is.
Speaker 2:Whatever, yeah. Theologically, it's a it's a disorienting thing.
Speaker 3:And there's another aspect here that's disorienting, and that is I think a lot of folks who come to Curian, they have lost their relational network.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 3:They feel like they're isolated, they're stranded. And I think one of the most beautiful things that Curian is giving and trying to even get better at is providing a new relational network where people have this sense of freedom, of belonging. That's powerful, I
Speaker 2:think. Absolutely. So
Speaker 4:what are
Speaker 6:you doing in October? You know what, among other things, I'm gonna be going to
Speaker 2:Theology Beer Camp twenty twenty six.
Speaker 6:Same. I can't wait. I can't wait to get together with a bunch of theology nerds, drink some beer. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Yep. Some cider, some low gluten something or other so it doesn't mess with me.
Speaker 6:Perfect. I know. And just talk about all the things. It's gonna be great. And I hope if you're listening to this, you come and join Jonathan and I at Theology Beer Camp twenty twenty six.
Speaker 2:I hope so. You're coming all the way from Phoenix. I only have to come from Kansas City. You're making the bigger commitment. Yes.
Speaker 2:I hope to see everyone. Peace.
Speaker 4:Tori, tell us about the third space.
Speaker 7:Wait. What?
Speaker 4:Well, is but but okay. We were talking about
Speaker 2:this. What?
Speaker 4:Like, why that's important? What one of the things, like, when you lose your faith network, when you are excommunicated or defrapped or you and you will there are a cost to this. There is a cost to integration. Yes. Make no mistake.
Speaker 4:There is a cost to wholeness making. There is a cost to all of it and so when the historic Jesus talks about counting the cost it's not a joke. Right? Like it's not like, oh I'm gonna go live in integration and wholeness making and I'm gonna have like rainbows and lucky charms every day. Like you will experience a cost and and it is a real you you don't just feel like it.
Speaker 4:You are excommunicated. You will lose relationships. Period. And you are neurobiologically driven. You need social connection the way you need food and water.
Speaker 4:Social connection, meaningful connection is actually your most basic fundamental human need. Period. In case you're wondering, Maslow stole his hierarchy from the black foot nation and inverted it. That's a whole another podcast. Go look it up.
Speaker 4:The point is indigenous wisdom has known forever that you cutting edge neuroscience is just now catching up Knowing that you are social beings, period. That is your most basic fundamental human need and from your meaningful social connections, your other neurobiological, relational, theological needs will also get met. And so I think
Speaker 3:Shalene just cut out a bunch of people. No Lucky Charms every day? I was promised that.
Speaker 4:I I say that because it's my most favorite food, really. And I was gonna say cereal, but really food. My parent my parents once shipped me a pallet of Lucky Charms. Nice. Just so you know, it lasted my entire freshman year of college.
Speaker 7:It didn't go stale?
Speaker 4:No. I ate every last marshmallow, and now I'm so obsessive. Am I the parent who buys Lucky Charms and then I go online and I buy the additional two bags of marshmallows.
Speaker 6:To go
Speaker 4:with. They make that. In case you're wondering, you too can get it shipped to your house. But the third space is that space outside of home and work. Right?
Speaker 4:You need that third space and that is what faith communities are. We I am not anti faith community. You you need a third space and faith communities are so beautifully function as that until they don't.
Speaker 2:Until they don't.
Speaker 4:Until they are the ones that are causing harm and and so I am for faith communities with everything that I am.
Speaker 2:Nice. Good. Reminded me our boy when he was young.
Speaker 4:Happy charms.
Speaker 2:And yeah. Well, our boy
Speaker 3:Every day.
Speaker 2:When he was young, couldn't say his l's or his r's, and he loved yucky charms. And he also loved quap and quench. Yeah. So Such a world. Okay.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna ask one question of you all, and then maybe we'll get one or two from our live audience at OrkCon twenty twenty six. It's like I queued these guys or something. The the question has something to do, and we were starting to get there a little bit maybe. I don't know. But all of us have had to step away from our previous places of belonging.
Speaker 2:And there's a sense in which, like all we're saying, it's true. It's disorienting. It's destabilizing. You lose a lot, and there's some stuff to gain. So what has life been like for each one of you?
Speaker 2:Let's start with Tori. Sorry. What has life been like for you once you've made that decision to kinda make that that primary fundamental step away from that particular, you know, organization that you knew you weren't safe in? And and I know for some of us, it's been a longer process than others, and, but
Speaker 7:So it was scary at first. I mean, absolutely. There's there is there is fear in that, the reality. And like what you're saying is that when I when I accepted that I was gay, right, and I stopped that battle, that internal battle, and I didn't tell anybody outwardly, There was something of an exhale that happened. And what I knew in that, I kinda didn't know where that was gonna go, right?
Speaker 7:There was mystery, certainly. There was the unknown of it all. But there was finally this moment of going, Okay, maybe I can just be myself here. Right? All of myself.
Speaker 7:And all of myself, and feeling the fullness of that, maybe for the first time. And there was still a deep depression that followed. There was still suicidal ideation, if I'm being honest in all of that, and I've talked about that a bit on the episode that Jonathan references. But I can say that there was this fresh air, and finally it felt expansive. And I was gonna be okay.
Speaker 7:I was. I remember in my worst moment, I will say this, in one of my worst moments, I was at Luther Seminary, and I was in a PhD program. And I took a nosedive. It was horrible, depression wise, because I was struggling with this whole accepting, you know, my sexuality and all this stuff. And in my worst moment, this is this is crazy, I was listening at my door and looking through the peephole, and if there was anybody on the stairs outside, I wouldn't go outside.
Speaker 7:And I would only go to the grocery, like, at 11:00 at night, and I would have my hood up and all these things. And I remember crying one night, and I said, God, you will claim me. You will claim me no matter what. And I took the chiro, the chiro, right, the x and the p, and I went to a tattoo shop, and I said, Tattoo this on me. Because in my worst moment, I thought, Oh my god, someone is gonna find me.
Speaker 7:I will have lost all my shit. My marbles are gonna be gone. Right? And I'm gonna be wandering the streets of Minnesota where no one knows me because I'm not from Saint Paul, Minnesota, and I've been isolated and all this kind of stuff. And God will have to claim me no matter what.
Speaker 7:Even if no one can claim my body, God will, and you will. Right? And for the first time when I walked away, I was like, oh, Wait a minute. Maybe there might be some other people who might claim me too. Right?
Speaker 7:There might be some other people in this. Thanks be to God. So I I I think that's how I would
Speaker 2:answer that. That's amazing. Thank you. One of you wanna follow that up?
Speaker 3:The first thing that comes to my mind requires me to just be quick about the reason why I am no longer a part of the denomination I was a part of, which was the Church of the Nazarene. I went through a trial for being queer affirming. I was brought up on charges for teaching doctrines contrary to denomination over that issue, but also for conduct unbecoming of a minister because of my advocacy for change on queer issues in the denomination. There's a long story there, but it ended up me going to trial. I was not only lost the verdict of the trial, not only was that I lost, but I lost my credentials as a minister and I lost my membership.
Speaker 3:They kicked me out. I kind of figured I'd lose my credentials, but I was really surprised that the denomination also took away my membership. And I was very numb when that happened, even though I kinda knew it was inevitable I was gonna lose my credentials. And I happened to be going to Europe to speak for a month right after that, And it was kinda nice to get out of the country, and even though it followed me there, still it was a new change, you know. And this had been my identity since birth.
Speaker 3:I mean, I grew up going to a Nazarene church, and I have spoken at every Nazarene higher education in America and many overseas and written books for the denomination and made sacrifices and thought I had a legacy in the future in this denomination as a theologian, and now that had been taken from me. And after I got back came back from Europe, my youngest daughter said, let's go to the Boise Pride Festival. And I said, yeah. Let's do that. I've never been.
Speaker 3:So we went down to Downtown Boise. We walked into all of these booths and things, and I was kinda walked by three or four and five or six, and then all of a sudden, I just started crying because this thought went through my head. These are my people. Not that I was in charge of them, but now I can identify with this group. This is these are the folks.
Speaker 3:I have something in common with them. And, course, you've been to a pride thing before. There's a lot of weird stuff going on. And I was like, yep. These are me.
Speaker 2:These are about refrocked.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So part of my story is not that I've totally erased my past, I still have friendships, I still attended the Nazarene church strangely enough, But part of my story is finding new identities in new communities and The Curian Network And it's happening. Yeah. It's part of that. What
Speaker 4:what have I lost? Right? What have I gained?
Speaker 2:Or both?
Speaker 4:Both. Well, I gosh, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I think the point is everyone knows people listening to this, they know they're
Speaker 4:losing You already know what you've lost. You're feeling it. Yeah. I had mentioned it earlier that I gained coherence but I I gained a functional harmony within myself and between me and my fellow humans, all my fellow humans well beyond the Christian religion and my the the earth. Like, I have gained a deep I'm gonna tell a story.
Speaker 4:That's a better way to say this. Oh, shoot. Now I'm gonna cry. Thanks. So I pray over we pray over our kids all the time and it's so funny how like the living word can keep changing.
Speaker 4:Right? But one of my kids and I especially love this verse and it starts in Ephesians but it talks about like, I cannot stop giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of all wisdom, the glorious mother would give you the wisdom and revelation so that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you would know God better. And, that's what I've gained. So the the neuroscience, in case you're wondering, it's deep it's deeply neuroscientific that, the eyes of your heart, that that I that you would open the eyes of my heart.
Speaker 4:There is this area in your brain, it's called the anterior cingulate cortex, the ACC. Neurologists call it the heart of your brain, and it is literally physiologically the place where empathy, social awareness, the the place that allows you to expand your physiological awareness and connection to other humans and to the creation and to the earth. And I did not realize how the old scripts that were no longer functioning were were constantly keeping my amygdala activated, were constantly keeping The Us versus them. And I gained this wisdom, this Sofia, you would know it as the spirit of God, as the eyes of my neurological heart became opened, I began to see the incredible amount of harm that I have caused, as internalized racism runs rampant within me. My my first language is the concept of whiteness.
Speaker 4:My family actually, here's a fun fact. I can well this is family lore. I haven't entirely checked this out so you can fact check me later. But so it said that my family came over on the Mayflower. You're welcome, world.
Speaker 4:We have been raping and pillaging the land since the beginning. Which I say it comically, but when you think about the horror of that and if you think about the ancestral epigenetics that I carry, that the eyes of my neurological heart would be opened so that I could see the amount of pain, the ways that I participate in racism and cause harm to physical human beings just through my ideology. That's what I gained, the eyes to see. Because when the eyes of your heart are not opened, you actually, neurologically, neurologically, biologically, you cannot actually see the harm that you're causing a lot of times. And I also gained a deep sense of self, a deep love for myself, for who I am as a woman, as a human, and and as a as I I've gained the whole world.
Speaker 4:Like, I have gained a human family. What I lost in my church community, I gained back. And now recognizing that I belong not only to humankind, but to the earth and to the cosmos in a way that I never belonged before.
Speaker 3:Good. Good.
Speaker 4:That's good.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's good. Thank you, Sterling. You're welcome. I feel like we should take an offering.
Speaker 2:So good.
Speaker 3:With every head bowed and every eye closed. I,
Speaker 2:similar, to Tom, come from the Church of the Nazarene, third generation Nazarene pastor. Granddads on both sides are Nazarene pastors. So all of that played a factor in what was happening as my life kind of my my ecclesiological life started to unravel a little bit. But long story short, I'll just say the very last meeting I had with, the denomination, with the highest members of the denomination, who in that meeting told me they didn't exactly know how to interpret the four scriptures out of 31,000 verses in the Bible around LGBTQ. And then after they said they didn't know, then they told me I was out of alignment with the theology.
Speaker 2:So I am out of alignment with the theology that they don't know. That's how that worked. But I remember leaving that little district denominational office, and I walked outside. And I don't I'm kind of embarrassed now that I am a grandpa that I don't that I hadn't thought of my grandfathers as much. Now I do as a grandpa all the time.
Speaker 2:But I remember walking out of that little building and I thought of both my granddads and my father. And I don't necessarily know what that means other than I was really concerned about the integrity of the family. But I also remember seeing just simple the wind blew through the trees. And I just decided, maybe not as cool as a tattoo, but I decided that that was the wind of the Holy Spirit. And there was a new there was something new blowing in my life.
Speaker 2:And so just to summarize what I lost, I lost a lot of friends and I lost a paycheck. But I also gained I sleep really well. Good. I sleep really well and I gained a whole bunch of new friends, not the least of which is the group a part of The Curian Network. So I am really, really thankful for that.
Speaker 2:And it was a good trade off. It was a good trade off. We're fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So good. I know we've actually gone we're we're going pretty late, but we got the live studio audience here. Are there any questions? And if if there's not and you all are tired, it's been a long day, that's fine too.
Speaker 2:But, any thoughts? Tracy, do you wanna say something? You should say something because you're you are a Curian Network ordained person. Do you have a comment or a question or something?
Speaker 5:The Curian gave me a new home.
Speaker 2:Yeah. The Curian gave Tracy a new home. Yeah. Yeah. That's right.
Speaker 2:So for those of you listening, you're gonna lose some stuff, but you'll get a new home. Yep. Michael. If
Speaker 5:I plant a Curian church, do I have to call it the
Speaker 2:Curian church? Yes, Michael, ever the contrarian, wants to plant a Curian church but not call it the Curian church. I think it sounds awesome. I love that.
Speaker 5:Is there a Curian church?
Speaker 4:I don't
Speaker 2:think there is. We don't have
Speaker 3:a one.
Speaker 2:Yeah. We don't have a single one. So, I think it yeah. You can do whatever you want, Mike.
Speaker 3:Speaking of that, why don't you go I don't I don't know if you did your list of the kinds of people who are a part of the net or part of the ecosystem before you started this podcast or
Speaker 2:at the beginning. Started recording? Yeah. You talking about mean, like pastors, chaplains, spiritual directors?
Speaker 3:Diversity because Mike's not a pastor.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:Right. But he could still qualify to be in the Curian network.
Speaker 4:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He administered a human evolution with me.
Speaker 2:One of the ideas Do it. We dare you. So one of the ideas is to widen the imagination for our society and our culture as to what a faith community leader is. It doesn't have to be what it always can basically has in our scenarios which is typically a male, you know, leader pastor. So, yes, first of all, men and women, queer, transgendered, black, white, rich, poor, that's what we're shooting for, a whole bunch of different people.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, they may not feel a call to the local pastorate at a local church level. They may be chaplains. In fact, most of the people we have credentialed right now are chaplains because we are registered or recognized by the National Board of Chaplaincy to endorse. But it might be, like, we have endorsed at least one, I think two maybe podcasters. Somebody like a Josh Patterson who is consistently doing work online and polling groups together, Like, he's doing some really viable work, maybe better than maybe even some local churches are doing in their setting.
Speaker 2:Obviously, theologians like you, Tom, former theologians, thinkers, spiritual directors, counselors, therapists.
Speaker 4:Jill owns a barbershop. Yep.
Speaker 2:Jill owns a barbershop. Has been heavily involved in nonprofits. So different leaders. So, yeah, the idea is, we don't need to be hierarchical about this and territorial. And so in other words, what you said about Mike is true.
Speaker 2:Right. He is welcome.
Speaker 4:Yeah. But he has a title. Tell him.
Speaker 2:He's he's already got a title?
Speaker 4:He's he's got a title already.
Speaker 7:Oh, I love that.
Speaker 2:Wait, isn't that hers?
Speaker 4:No. Mine's evolution.
Speaker 2:Oh, evolution. Minister to human flourishing. All that. Yeah. Flourish.
Speaker 4:You too can be that along with Mike.
Speaker 3:One other thing you might wanna say is that even though we cast a wide net, there is a process people go through.
Speaker 2:They don't
Speaker 3:just sort of throw go online and write your name in a blank and say, guess what? I'm now ordained. Yep. Tell them a little bit about that process.
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. And that process is all on the website. It's pretty pretty straightforward there, but it involves a background check. It involves a psychological evaluation, reference check, criminal check, and then it involves them signing off on our sexual discrimination stuff that we have listed there that we take very seriously.
Speaker 2:And then we do a Zoom credentialing call that usually lasts thirty to sixty minutes. And then we ask them there, you know, Have you done these things? And are you gonna live in resonance with our nine cultural values? Do you feel like you're in resonance with our theological paradigm? And we talk a little bit about their story and make sure they know that we're in it together.
Speaker 2:So, there's a process. Yes, sir?
Speaker 5:Two parts. First, I'm thankful for what you just said as a former judicatory pastor.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 5:And the question is, what's a former theologian?
Speaker 2:I'm Yeah. I probably didn't say that well. What I was thinking of was some of our friends who have been
Speaker 4:Can you ask the question?
Speaker 2:Oh, sorry. Yeah, so the question is what's a former theologian? And I probably didn't say that well, but I was thinking of some of our friends who have been professors their whole life who are now retired, but who would still like to identify with denomination and who could no longer identify with the previous denomination.
Speaker 7:Once a theologian, always a
Speaker 2:Once a theologian, always a theologian, Sherry. That's right. That's right. Former theologian. Yeah, good catch.
Speaker 2:Charles? So, just to be clear, when I join, I get a pallet of Lucky Charms. That's right.
Speaker 4:We should ship everybody Lucky Everyone
Speaker 2:who joins gets a pallet of Lucky Charms.
Speaker 3:You just can't eat them every day. That was part of her, you know,
Speaker 4:you can, but it's not healthy.
Speaker 2:Do you get the extra bags?
Speaker 4:You gotta pay for that. That's extra.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, it has been a very long day here at OrkCon. We've been going all day long talking about all these kind of issues. So thank you very much, audience, for being with us. For folks who are listening online or wherever this is gonna live, we want you to know we're actually praying for you, and we love you, care about you and have been there and, know a little bit about what you're going through and just want you to know there's life on the other side.
Speaker 2:Abundant life, Zoe life. It ain't stopping now. We've come too far to turn back now. Alright. Thanks, everybody.
Speaker 2:I guess this is the end of our little discussion. So thank you. Thank you. Thanks
Speaker 1:for being part of The Curian Podcast today. We encourage you to check out our website, thecurian.network. That's curian, thecurian.network. We are a new denominational ecosystem credentialing, resourcing, and endorsing pastors, counselors, chaplains, spiritual directors, and faith community leaders. Speaking of faith community leaders, if you are a church looking for a new denominational ecclesiological home, we encourage you to reach out to us.
Speaker 1:And if you are a church planter looking to do a new thing, we would love to partner with you. Thanks everyone, have a great day.
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